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Maya Hawke on Chaos Angel, relationship patterns and why she's not waving goodbye to Robin just yet
Feb 9, 2025
Maya Hawke has just released her third album, 'Chaos Angel' – a record, at its core, about relationships. Here she talks with Rhian Daly of The Forty-Five about the writing process, being a multi-hyphenate artist and how she makes of herself through art. This conversation was for the June 2024 Cover of The Forty-Five – read the interview and see the exclusive photos at thefortyfive.com
View Video Transcript
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[Music] well we're here today to talk about your
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brilliant new album chaos Angel um which I'm very excited to talk to you about because I love it but also because you
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have said that this is your favorite album that you've made thus far um I was one yeah I mean I hope I say that about
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every album I make you know I hope that I'm never like this new one it's okay
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but that old one I made I that's the best you know I I hope that's not true it's been true for every you know every
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record I've made so far and I want it to keep being true because I think it's it's good to be more excited by your
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life today than your life yesterday yeah exactly what is it about this record that you love so much right now compared
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to blush and Moss I think that it's that I put honestly I was I Christian Lee
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Hudson who produced it really encouraged me to include my own writing in it um
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and and not just I've always written all the words but I think I used to see myself as like a poet in a band and this
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is the first time I felt like a musician um and because I you know there's a
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bunch of Melodies on the record that I wrote um and not just all the words but
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um so I think I feel more agency over it in that way um and not as kind of a an
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odd way to put out a book of poetry but actually a record you know and um so I
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think that's part of what makes it I feel a lot of ownership over the record and agency over it and um and so there's
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that and then I also think that I've just gotten to know my own style better as a writer and I'm H honing in on I
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think I used to try to be obscure for no reason like I used to try to kind of
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hide the truth of what I was saying in a elaborate metaphor that you'd have to listen to a bunch of times to understand
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what I'm talking about and to me this album is very direct and um I'm and I'm
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proud of that and um I think I just have learned more about how to produce music
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and and close the gap between What I Hear in my head and what comes out of the speaker you know I'm going back to
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um how you think you've changed as a songwriter do you think that you kind of just needed to grow in confidence to be able to be that direct and to be kind of
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like uncloaked in your lyrics think so I also think I needed some different Inspirations I think that
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I was extremely inspired and still am by Poets like Dickinson and and the same
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Vincent Malle and um coldridge and these people who
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wrote in really elaborate language sometimes I mean Emily didn't but she wrote and sometimes it's hard to
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understand what she's talking about you know these metaphors um you have to dissect like
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it's like the brain is wider than the sky for if you hold them side by side the one the other will contain um you
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know it's like what does that mean and I think I was inspired by that like honing in on on what was the most
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like if I were to paint a picture of how I was feeling and then write a poem
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about the picture that I painted and then write a song based on the poem from the picture that I like just these
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levels of removal um that can bring you to a wider metaphoric wisdom but that
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also can kind of break the chain of intimacy between you and your listener
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um especially in song you know the thing with the written word is the written word demands more from you as a reader
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um you have to you have to sing it right you have to find the music in it but a song is such an extraordinary
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communication tool that you don't need to add that much more stuff to it you
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can really be quite direct you know you can say I want you I love you you know like you can be clear and and the music
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and on the written page that's not much of a poem but if put to music in the right way it can hit almost like
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original thought you know almost like I want you I love you is a new idea and that's the
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incredible power that music has as a to communicate with human beings so I'm I
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does that make sense yeah it does yeah yeah um how do you feel about kind of putting out an album that is more direct
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and having people being able to understand it that instantly I guess and having I guess saying I want you I love
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you can be quite vulnerable sometimes when you're saying it in that direct a way it can I mean like you know there's
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no like gossipy secrets on this record really which I shouldn't say I should
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say it's full of gossipy secrets and please come to figure out the what's going on on the set of stranger things
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that that's what I should say but but the truth is it's I'm not I don't feel
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like that wildly exposed by any personal detail you know and I feel like that's
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something that's happening in music a lot right now is like there's some Feud
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or drama between these two people that are both famous and the song is gonna illuminate something about that I feel
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like that's I that's that's something that pulls pulls me into listen to records sometimes but I don't have any
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of that stuff um it's just personal it's just and what's what's revealing about it is that it reveals the way I think um
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not exactly what I'm thinking about but the way that I think um and um so that's
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revealing and personal but not in a way that I'm worried the People magazine is going to write
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we've revealed the inner country of Maya's imagination and how she moves
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through pain and um narrativized her experiences like it's not salacious but
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it is personal yeah for sure um with this T the title of this album chaos
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Angel um that was inspired by your new movie Wildcat um and that kind of LED you to this idea of the guardian angel
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of Love who tries to do good but just Causes Chaos instead um I was wondering
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how this chaos Angel kind of represented or reflected you at the time that you were writing this
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album you know it's come to mean a couple different things to me so it's a little bit confusing um but the the
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thing that inspired me was this one line um where FN conter describes herself fighting with her guardian angel um that
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she would punch at it and that really got me thinking about the way we all do that whether
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whatever imagery and metaphoric language you like if you like to call it your instincts or your gut or your guardian
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angel or your whatever you know if you like like you can call it a lot of
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things but we all know what it is um and it's the voice in our head that says I
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think you don't need to have that drink that next drink or maybe this relationship isn't that good for you you
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seem a little like nervous all the time or maybe it's time to go you know maybe
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you shouldn't you know get mad at your boss today maybe he's having a bad day and you should go home just the the
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thing that says maybe take a deep breath you know whatever tell like that thing
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and and that this record is me talking to that voice um and reflecting on
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experiences I've had where I didn't listen and where I fought with it and reflecting on experiences I've had where
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I have listened and where I've learned and learn to listen um and so there's
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kind of that which is the truest thing but then I also enjoyed this story um and this idea that what if you're also
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this other thing can happen where your instincts can be bad bad things can happen to you um in your childhood or in
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whatever time in your life and it can knock your instincts off course where
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you hear a voice that says don't don't don't tell that person you're upset you
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should lie about that thing they no one will love you if they know that that's true you know and and that to me is like
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a sick Guardian Angel you know and uh it's it's your protective instincts gone
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aai um and so I think that that's where I I also focusing on this idea of the
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character of what if I could personify my sick Angel um what if I
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could talk to her and say like hey you're okay you just got a little
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confused about who what your job is you know and like what if I could com
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communicate with my instincts and therefore help heal them so that when I do hear a voice in my head that says
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don't don't say that out loud right now I can trust I can trust it um and it's
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not some little beaten down kitten that that is just afraid um so that's kind of
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what the you know does that answer your question yeah yeah it does yeah um with that in terms of that I guess there's
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the other part of the chaos Angel narrative which is like when she retraces her steps over the destruction that she's caused she finds that she's
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actually uh left Beauty and goodness and or that's kind of sprung up in her wake how does that kind of tie into the
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healing side of it I guess well I think that this interesting thing happened to me I mean and now this is personal but
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again not about anyone that anyone else would be interested in but but I went through a period of time of having an
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extreme amount of regret over my behavior and romantic relationships um I
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just really didn't [Music] um I was I hadn't been in a relationship
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that lasted longer than a year and I was kind of in a state of Serial monogamy
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you know of of getting into one and then getting out of it and then starting a new one and I I had made this I had this
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joke that was uh the relationship was never the problem but breaking up was always the Cure um
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where I would get this Rush of this feeling of freedom and and when it happened and then and then I would
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immediately go try to tie myself down to something else um and it's kind of with this pendulum that I was swinging
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between the desire to be free and the desire to be safe um and that I would I
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would want to be gr whenever I was free I'd be like I just want to be grounded you know I just want to get grounded in my apartment and grounded in my
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relationship and grounded in this way and then I would ground myself in all these ways and then I would be like I
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can't breathe I can't you know and and so um I and I and I I stopped doing that
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and in the first wave of not doing it anymore I had a lot of self-hatred for having done it and
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um I I then after a little time went by and I realized that from all those
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experiences I'd made a lot of friends that I didn't have a long list of people that hated me or wouldn't pick
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up my calls if I called them or people I hated or had done me wrong I I didn't
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have this like ferocious list of people that I wouldn't talk to I had friends
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actually and people who we' worked through our experience together and and
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moved it into a friendship and um and that that was so
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beautiful and that I valued it so much and that's kind of where I the idea of
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this chaos angel came from was you know know the chaos was created to exists but
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actually it led to things that are of more value you know in my opinion friendship is the highest the highest
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reign of relationship because there's no societal pressure
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once you're an adult to make friends or there's it's it's it's your own choice
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it's you it's people that choose to be around you not because you can provide them with a home or sex or whatever it's
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they're just they just love you and um that's so beautiful so that's kind of
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that that's my answer to that question um was the title track the first song that you wrote for this album
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where did this album begin this album began with Christian
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Lee Hudson who produced it hearing me walk around um a house singing the title
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track um and i' I'd had that Melody and some of those lyrics for over two years
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um almost you know within the period of the time of time before I'd made e like uh my second record even before Moss you
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know I had that and uh and he was like hey that's really good and what is that and I was like oh
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it's just this thing I've been working on for ages and and and I was like but I'm sure I'll just take the lyrics and
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I'll separate them and I'll give them to someone you know I'll give them to you or will or Ben and and we do something
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with it someday I just to finish it first and he was like we don't need new music that's great um and I was like
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whoa okay cool and and it was through his encouragement that I started to put
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my own music on this record and and that was the first song that he noticed and
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um and then I worked on it for a while um and uh wrote and rewrote the verses
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and choruses and um until it got to where it is so yes it was the first song
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written for this record um and uh I didn't even know that I was writing it for this record when I wrote it nor
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did I know that it would exist on this record in the with the music that it has
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how did having that encouragement to put your own music on this album and to kind of AC accept yourself as a musician see
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yourself as a musician change how this album turned out do you
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think it it it changed how I felt about it I don't
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know and it changed
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it changed my command over the music um and my relationship to it as as my
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music um you know I think for a while I saw like I just I just didn't see myself
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as as a musician I saw myself as a poet in a band and and now I do and and
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that's I mean that was the change and it and it made me put more of myself in other places on
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the record you know it made me feel safe to to put myself everywhere I guess yeah
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instead of just like the lyrics I guess did you feel like you were um kind of expressing yourself through Melody
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through chords and new ways that you hadn't been able to before hadn't wanted to before yes yeah I would say in my
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desire to be constant to be honest all the time really chords is the next step I really
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know I know very simple chords yeah and um you know I know all the basics and um
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but I don't know like an interesting cool new way to play g i play it the way that they teach you on the first day of
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your guitar lesson you know um and will and Ben and Christian know amazing ways
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to play the same chord in 50 different ways and I um so I don't feel like I have the
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command to express myself emotionally through chords yet but Melody and um
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Melody and and lyrics I feel I do um and I'm working on chords yeah many amazing
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songs have been written with just the most simple chords though and simple way of changing chords I guess too oh
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totally I mean most of my favorite songs have this have the chords that I write with um but there is different emotional
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connotation to all different kinds of chords and um I get very excited figuring out what the chords are going
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to be with my band and and um you know how the phrasing of the chords are gonna
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operate um that's extremely exciting to me yeah um I noticed in the credits on
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this album that the second half of the record is credited just for the writing to you and Christian uh whereas the
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first album first half of the album sorry you have a kind of group of writers on different songs um was this
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album kind of written in two halves almost or is it kind of written in different ways between the two halves would you say I would say say you're
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you're generally that's there's a random accuracy to that that you're right the
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end of the r does have more of just me and Christian but it also has um wrong again on it or no wrong again's at the
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beginning now um I guess maybe you're just totally right um but or or Big
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Ideas at the beginning and just Christian and I wrote on that one together but I think that it's basically
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I some songs on this record were written more in my um older styles like wrong
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again no not it's not even true actually but wrong again but um I think that
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Christian helped me the most with the songs that I had written like I wrote
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big idea and like was playing on the car and he was like we could make it better in these ways like um if we added this
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riff and used this chord instead of that chord you know if we used F minor instead of just um leaving a space there
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and then going you know they would make it more interesting so he and and then we ended up writing hang in
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there together after the record was out in a way that I'd almost rarely written a song before which was just like
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actually together like I was like what if we went like this and then it went this way and then you know he was like What if it went like this and so I think
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that that that's kind of why there are some that are just the two of us in it like is
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that he was really helpful at for me to finish the things that I'd written um
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you know to bring them over the line uh and then uh Ben and will and I
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all kind of all the songs that were written by all of us and Christian were were written in so many different weird
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ways I couldn't begin to explain um but um uh but the the second and first half
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is random um just it's just how I ended up sequencing it um I think you know Ben
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has this incredible for poppier Melodies um he's like just I think an
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extraordinary pop writer and producer and and um so I I think that you know I
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wanted the first half of the album to come out of the gate punching you know
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and so that's why missing outs up there and big idea and I think you know and
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then will and I wrote wrong again and that was that always had kind of actually mostly been in the sequence
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later in the record I almost at times I thought about it as a last song um but I love that song and
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it is folkier and I didn't want it to get lost at the end of the record you
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know I and so I don't know I'm taking you through menial decision- making about sequence but I um but it's totally
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random the the sequence it's just how I felt flow the best yeah fair enough
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though I did at a certain point always know black ice was the first song chaos Angel was the last song why did you want
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those two to be the two bookends then because they both have um these outros
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for lack of a better word that are that were dealing with the Mantra and I was
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playing with montra a lot on the record I mean it's in wrong again it's in you're okay I'm okay it's in oh no or
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better I can't remember what I ever ended up calling it but the the um kind of autotune durge um and uh it's all
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over the record but the two Strongest Ones in my opinion were those two and
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and they really hold the my thesis for the record like they really
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are you know and black ice was where I started it was the first song the chaos Angel was I thought it was going to be
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the last song written for the record hang in there ended up being the last song written for the record but I um I I
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thought it was and and it if I only had two songs to put out
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that were chaos Angel it'd be those two it'd be the progress that I make in um
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and really they almost should be an inverse order like chaos Angel is so much Messier and is so much more raw and
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kind of [ __ ] up and black ice is really my thesis is like give up and be
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loved let yourself be loved stop fighting stop stop ignoring your guardian angel just like let let the
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good stuff in and and deal with your past and reflect on it and and move
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forward um and then chaos Angels rougher and more raw but I felt like big idea
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was this sort of wish for the future and then chaos Angels kind of the big reveal
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of of the turmoil of the past I guess Yeah you mentioned the Mantra that you
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have in this album which is in the title track there's the Mantra of I want you I love you I promise I'm sorry um what was
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the idea about how does that kind of connect to the rest of the album because those are words that are kind of written throughout the record right yeah and
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there feelings that appeared throughout the record and and they were in what I was talking about before with that cycle of being on the pendulum swing I saw I I
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I I realized that my relationships were moving in that Circle of I want you is
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the beginning oh my God I see you I want you um I love you whoa I see you I want
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you I've know you I love you right and then I I promise I promise to love you forever and want you forever and be here
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forever and then oh whoops I'm sorry no I don't actually I can't be here forever
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I um I can only be here for for when I was here and so I think that that's
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um uh you know the journey that I was on and I I I saw it as this kind of
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cyclical pattern um and I I thought about titling the record that at a time
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period I want you I love you I promise I'm sorry um but um but it connects to the rest of the
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record and in that I feel like the rest of the record is an invitation to figure out
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how to break that cycle yeah um and the last line of the record is I love you um
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you know and and that that's where you I mean even on my last record I had a lyric that was love is such a better
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thing to do and that you know that that's really how I see it is that it's
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a much better way to be to just put love
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out into the universe you know and and to in whatever shape it is forms if it's
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love to your family love to your co-workers love to a lover love to a friend love to an ex-lover it's all love
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what do you think that songwriting and music has taught you about
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love it's taught me more about collaboration and that's my favorite
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form of love is collaboration and I think that I like to see all of my relationships as a collaboration you
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know we're we're collaborating on this friendship is it working for you do you wish it had more of this in it or more
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of that we're collaborating on this interview you know um but I think that
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working Ben and will and Jesse are who I made my first record with um with along
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with some other people but then I made my second record with Ben and will and Christian and now my third record has
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Ben will Christian and and Jesse came and worked on it um and so I think that
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that's moving through different phases of your life and figuring out ways to work with the same people in all those
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different phases um I think it's just the most beautiful thing ever and i'
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I've learned a lot about that from my band yeah I love that um one of the other writers on your album is your
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brother um you've obviously worked with your dad and wild cat you've worked with your mom in the past as well which I'm sure are all very different experiences
24:36
different projects um but broadly speaking what would you say are the joys of working on Creative projects with
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your family and with people who know you the best and the most intimately yeah I would say I mean will
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and Ben and Christian and Jesse are also all my family yeah um as far as I see it you know um
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and I love working with people I know well I mean I think most people do um
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like I think you know there's so many brother sister songwriting teams and
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um it can be really vulnerable writing with other people extremely vulnerable
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and scary because you want the thing to be the best it can be you also want
25:21
people to like your idea um and I think that that's working with people that you
25:27
know all that you know think you are of value
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that you have good ideas it makes it easier when they say that idea was bad to go okay you're just saying that idea
25:41
was bad not that I am bad yeah you kind of know that they uh approve well not
25:47
approve of you but appreciate your talents already you don't need that validation from them I guess yeah and so you can take more criticism so you can
25:54
handle them pushing you harder um another song in this album Miss out was inspired by the time you
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spent with your brother at Brown where he goes to school and kind of tapping into this college experience that you'd never had um what did you think that you
26:07
were missing out on before you started hanging out with him and his friends there and did you kind of learn that you had been missing something or that you
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hadn't been missing something actually um yeah I I learned that I had been um you know and that everyone said
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to me that the thing to fear about not going to college and not doing that was
26:25
not putting in the time with your own generation you know not not getting to meet those people who will be there
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because it's just four years and then they're going to graduate and they're all going to be friends and you're GNA
26:38
have been this weird freak hanging out with 40y olds you know and so um and I
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learned that I really had missed out on that it's beautiful like kids working
26:49
together make putting on plays together writing their own being interested in their own work studying old work it's a
26:55
beautiful thing um but I also learned to have love for my
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own choices and where my life had gone and the people that it had helped me find and that that was also okay you
27:08
know that it was that both things were okay I think I I like when I first was
27:14
hanging out there I I started I like would cry in conversations about whether or not the SAT was a good judge of
27:21
intelligence um and by the end I was like maybe it is maybe it's not it's not
27:26
my kind of intelligence and I'm okay with my life um you know and I think that that that was a big transition for
27:32
me yeah did you think that you kind of needed that um kind of validation of
27:38
your path almost that it had been different from other people's um and kind of be feel more secure in that yeah
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I think so I mean I think you know my both my parents didn't go to college and so I think that they
27:52
had had an a dream that their kids would have a different path than they did and
27:57
and do better you know like every every family um or you know most people's
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parents want their kids to do better and do more and have more time and more freedom than they had and
28:10
so I really felt like I was letting them down when I didn't you know um and
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then uh and so that was its own thing but I I I think
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through that experience of being with my brother I both realized that they'd really been right about a lot of stuff
28:30
there was a lot that there was a ton of stuff that I had missed because I didn't go but also that i' experienced other
28:38
things that were of equal value um in that song you sing I've been someone to talk about I want to be someone to talk
28:44
to is that kind of relating to perhaps people seeing you as a public Persona or
28:49
a perception of a public Persona rather than the person Maya that you've experienced over time yes yes I think
28:58
that's exactly I mean I can say more about it but I think that that's exactly you just got the nail on the head that's
29:04
what I would have said yeah is and and also not and not just that also I
29:12
think I think in the same way in kind of the way that this record is really about
29:19
relationships uh you know even in a normal way not in not in like a public
29:26
figure way in a normal way if you do have some chaotic
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relationships you're likely going to get gossiped about um you know and um and
29:37
that and that never feels good because you never you know no one ever understands your point of view or
29:43
whatever on what happened or but I think that that's a thing being like Oh I don't want to be like some
29:52
wild person running around with people being like Oh do you know what Maya like you know like and not like in the public
29:59
just in my own Community like you know um and I I'd rather be someone to talk to um and confide in and be trustworthy
30:08
and be seen as a as a friend and a a good Secret Keeper and you
30:14
know and and I know someone really well who I went to their birthday party a
30:20
couple years ago and so many people were at their birthday party and all of the
30:27
people at their birthday party really knew them and really trusted them and saw them as a confidant and a creative
30:34
inspiration and all of these wonderful qualities that one wants to see in
30:40
people that they like and then they and I was like oh I want to be like that
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when I'm older I want to be the kind of person that other people have trusted
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and that other people have seen as as worthy and um and reliable and kind
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that's who I want to grow up to be and um and so I think that's what that the that lyric is maybe even more about that
31:05
than about the public eye so to speak that sounds like an amazing kind of
31:11
person to be I think that's you go to um in you've mentioned before uh in
31:17
this conversation kind of how your songwriting has changed I noticed that particularly in uh okay or you're okay
31:23
I'm not sure which uh version you're calling it but me neither
31:29
I think in that song that kind of is largely focused just on two lines if you're okay then I'm okay um I was
31:36
wondering what it was about that song that was kind of telling you that actually you don't need to add that much more to it and it's kind of its own
31:42
storytelling just as is with mostly just those two lines I was really inspired by this song you can make me feel bad if
31:48
you want to by phosphorescent um they really just repeat that phrase over and over again
31:54
you can make me feel bad if you want to you know and um and the song hit me like a truck
32:02
and the repetition of the phrase expanded the phrase you know there's there's an idea in acting which
32:08
is that if you if you repeat the same thing twice if you say shut up shut up shut up every time you say it it has to
32:14
have a different meaning um even just subtly you there has to be a reason that you're saying again saying it again
32:21
because every phrase in a play in a movie in a song is of value every second of time that you're bothering the
32:28
audience to listen to you um has value and
32:34
um uh I so I think that I I this phrase
32:40
came to me if I'm okay then you're okay as kind of a a story of codependence you know of when you're only okay when
32:47
someone else in your life is okay you know whoever it is where if if they're if they're if they're happy you're happy
32:54
and if they're said you're said and and it's another pattern I was trying to break you know I mean this record is
33:00
about about breaking patterns and trying to find a way to be okay even when someone else in my life wasn't okay um
33:08
and it felt like worthy of repeating to me you know yeah I feel like it kind of
33:14
grows in power kind of almost like you said every time that you sing it as well thank you um with okay as well I
33:21
read that that was inspired by cesses Under A Woman Under the Influence um how
33:26
did that movie kind of play that song Oh interesting um well
33:33
codependence um and alcoholism are so linked um and that movie is an
33:40
incredible picture of dependency um codependent relationships
33:47
and a codependent relationship to alcohol and um I was inspired by that
33:52
and I was also really inspired by the visuals of that movie for my visual landscape of this
33:58
record you know what the album cover would look like the movie poster I was I was inspired by it so that's kind of the
34:03
the connected tissue um at the end of big idea you saying uh I saw the best
34:09
minds of my generation dismantle a system only to replace it huddled around burning burning roome looking for love
34:15
um I was wondering what you're talking about in those lines um I think I'm talking
34:22
about well I I I want people to not know I want people to decide for themselves what they think it means but I'll tell
34:28
you what I think it means is I was interested in this feeling that my generation
34:37
is rightfully um rebuking the rules and
34:43
confinements and ideas of the generations that have come before us in an attempt to find equality and
34:49
Liberation but what's also happening is they're getting extremely um or you know
34:55
the internet is creating an environment where we're extremely unforgiving with people and aren't totally offering
35:01
people permission to learn and grow and change and are almost getting punishing
35:07
in the same way that like the church is punishing of like you know thought crime and and not
35:16
really having this I this liberated mindset of you can grow you can change you can
35:23
make mistakes you can heal we want to teach you we want to welcome you onto our team of fighting the good fight it becomes
35:29
this you know I feel like so many people feel like speaking out about what they
35:36
want to have changed as a lose lose scenario because um so many people will
35:42
disagree with you and even the people who agree with you will pick apart the way you spoke up the way that you came
35:49
out that you forgot to do this other thing as well and and I just I think that we're going to chase our own tail
35:56
doing that and aren't and that we need to create a a welcoming and exciting
36:01
environment with which to change and to wake up you know um and we're not doing
36:08
that and so that's dismantle the system only to replace it um I'm explaining it
36:13
and I'm only at the second line um and then it's uh huddled around burning Rome looking for love I is the you know I
36:20
think we're all like the world is ending but we also have to live our own lives
36:26
and care about our own student menial drama and our own little art projects and you know like is and is the world
36:32
ending I mean the whole song is kind of like what do we do about the fact that it really seems like the world is ending
36:38
because every generation has always thought that they would be the last you know but now we've have all these
36:45
scientists saying the world is ending and like so are we actually the last and
36:51
or is that an ego thing like thinking we are important enough to be the last and and how and if we really are the last we
36:58
probably should like really start trying to do something about it right but we're all just like sitting around wondering
37:03
what you know uh like is happening in Jennifer Lawrence's personal life or whatever you
37:09
know and so it's like what like what are we doing is it the Apocalypse in which case we should start preparing or is it
37:17
not the Apocalypse in which case we should stop worrying about it you know and so that's huddle around burning room looking for love and I believe in one
37:24
God that nobody should trust is kind of intentionally obscure I mean it
37:30
means something to me but I won't even say what it means exactly closing my door no worries no worries um you've
37:36
talked about in the past about how music and kind of acting sides of your creativity feed into each other um
37:43
because in one you're learning about yourself and the other you're learning about the world and about other people
37:48
um what lessons would you say that you've picked up about the world through acting that you can see as being present
37:53
in this album
38:01
I think through playing Parts um I've grown to discover more
38:08
parts of myself you know like I am I'm not exactly like Robin on
38:16
stranger things but there are parts of me that are a lot like her um and I
38:22
think playing her helped me to explore those parts and come to accept them and
38:29
find Grace for them in me you know like the part of me that can't stop talking
38:34
and um the part of me that has had um you know massive periods of time of
38:40
Confusion And rry Over the exploration of my sexuality um and the parts of me
38:48
that are sarcastic and and dis and uncoordinated and you know I I grew to
38:53
have love for those parts and to explore them further for her benefit and therefore for my own benefit as well
39:00
you know and and there's tons of that in the record um and uh and I think and and
39:07
in other characters it's always that too you know and when I was playing Flannery I learned things about my
39:15
loneliness um and my feeling of not being really understood by anyone I I explored that in
39:22
my in my part in Asteroid City I explored the part of me that wants to control other people around me and like
39:29
tell and like get them to play my game do my story learn my like I so I think
39:35
that that's that in by by empathizing with people who aren't like you you
39:40
learn things about you and that maybe they're not as unlike you as you thought do you think that through your
39:47
work both as a musician and as an actor that you're able to become a better person then in maybe a way that if you
39:53
had chosen this other path of going to college and getting a job in you know quote unquote normal job that maybe you
39:59
wouldn't have been able to learn those things at this point in your life no
40:05
idea I'm sure I would have I mean I just have I just have no idea yeah um because
40:11
I'm sure I would have because of no matter what I wouldn't matter what I ended up doing if I if I hadn't gotten as lucky as I was and gotten to start my
40:18
career um you know that's extremely lucky um and if that hadn't have happened it wouldn't have stopped me
40:25
from Making art you know I I wouldn't have stopped me from doing plays at the
40:30
school that I was or like you know applying to be a a a teacher of acting somewhere and exploring things that way
40:37
it wouldn't I it wouldn't have stopped me from writing songs even if no one wanted to listen to them you know I I'm
40:45
my when it came time for my decision of what I wanted to do with my life I had
40:50
to make sure that I was invested in the Arts beyond the Arts ability of what the
40:56
Arts could do for me and really of what I could do for the Arts right and that's a um and and that would I be as happy as
41:05
an acting teacher and as or as a um an English teacher or an acting teacher or
41:12
as a someone working in like regional theater and and I had to ask myself those questions is is would I want to do
41:19
that too if this didn't work out if I didn't get the privilege of talking to you about my work and other people
41:25
talking about it and engaging with it that didn't happen would I still want to do it and when I realized the answer was
41:31
yes that's when I felt good about committing my life to the Arts especially because I in the way I grew
41:37
up I was so aware of the pitfalls of Fame and attention and and my dad gave
41:43
this incredible speech that I highly recommend you listen to at the Gotham Awards a few years ago about how many times in his career he's bottomed out um
41:51
you know where he thought his career was over and that he would never work again or make any money again as an actor and
41:57
and and that will happen you know you you go through these periods of bottoming out and making sure that you
42:03
wanted to be an artist as much in those periods in time as you do when a new
42:08
season of stranger things is coming out and everyone's wants to talk to you and thinks you're special like um and so I I
42:17
think I would have found a way to learn the same stuff when you are maybe G to be feeling sorry thinking about
42:22
experiencing those perod where you're boming out perhaps does it make you feel like you have more of a safe that or
42:27
more like you know it doesn't matter if that's what happens cuz you're going to be involved in this in the future
42:34
anyway yeah I think so I mean I I often go to sleep fantasizing
42:41
about when I will be be seen as qualified enough to be allowed to teach
42:47
an acting class you know um or a little writing Workshop or like I I love people
42:54
and I love making art and I love the spirit of no wrong answers you know I
42:59
maybe because I'm dyslexic and I went to school and and I really suffered in
43:05
classes where there were right and wrong answers um but I really excelled in classes where there weren't you know in
43:11
art classes and and so the idea of getting to provide that for other people of a space where there are no wrong
43:17
answers and it's about your expression and like uh you know that being able to
43:26
offer that to other people excit ites me a lot and I I I really actually can't wait for the day that I I I I do that
43:33
that's lovely um I want just go back very quickly to Robin where you were saying talking about how she's taught
43:39
you a lot about yourself or helped you kind of accept different parts of yourself given that this is the last
43:44
time that you're going to be playing her how are you feeling about saying goodbye to her as a
43:50
character well it won't be a goodbye because the experience of being on a show like
43:58
stranger things is a once in a-lifetime experience you know to get to be in something that is successful and good
44:06
you know that you like that is a value that I I actually think is a value to
44:11
the world like I I think the show helps people gives them Joy gives them Heroes
44:18
gives them people to look up to lets themselves see themselves in these characters I I believe in the show um
44:27
and and I believe in the metaphor of the upside down and as a metaphor for getting through puberty I I I believe in
44:34
that um and and I know that I will be talking to
44:40
people about that character and that experience the rest of my life um and
44:46
you know going to Comic Con and meeting people that cared about that character
44:51
forever um and so it's not a goodbye um but it's very sad to say goodbye to my
45:00
co-workers um that I've been working with for so long and my scene partners that character will be with me forever
45:06
but the experience of making the show won't be in and that's an experience I'm very sad to say goodbye to um what where
45:14
do you hope your career both in terms of music and acting goes beyond this kind of the next few projects you have coming
45:19
up acting wise and Beyond this album could I ask you to be more specific yes you can
45:27
thank you what like what kind of I guess creative Ambitions do you have for your
45:32
career I'm always hesitant to say things that I want to do that I haven't done
45:38
like I want to keep being in movies and I want to keep making records and I I want everything to do well enough that
45:43
I'm allowed to do it again you know I want to be able to keep my my metro card of being allowed to make art because I
45:49
love it and um uh so and I'm there are other things I'd like to do other
45:54
disciplines I'd like to try and things like teach and um but I hesitate to say them because it makes me feel like a
46:01
someone who says that they have a screenplay but won't let you read it you know like the per like people at a like
46:07
talking about talking about the things that you want to do that you haven't done in the
46:13
public feels a little like pretending to be someone you're not you know um so I
46:20
don't I I don't know I won't say anything that I I don't know is g to happen you know but I but I will say
46:26
that I um I've always one thing that's stayed consistent about me is that what's made
46:32
me love working is working with people who love what they're working on and that I hope to could just continue in my
46:39
life I don't care what genre it is I love comedy I love drama I love sci-fi I love fantasy I love romance I love you
46:46
know I love it all as long as the writing is great so I just want to keep getting to work with great writers and
46:51
and directors who are passionate about the job that they're doing and and um and actors who are kind and
46:57
collaborative and excited and um you know that's that's what I care about um
47:02
you mentioned other disciplines I noticed you've been painting during this interview is that something that you
47:08
would want to try and move into is that just a hobby for you it's just a hobby um I mean I I've painted on every album
47:16
cover I've done except the this one um and inside the record if you if you buy the record there's the the lyric book
47:22
has my paintings in it um but um I no don't sell them or do anything with them
47:28
but they're I think it's really important you know Commerce and arts
47:34
relationship is very complicated yeah and you know we all want to make art you
47:41
gilan Welch has this amazing song everything is free and artists really do
47:46
just want to make art no matter what it's GNA be you know but when if you do have success the of
47:55
to any degree it gets very addictive and can start to change the way you do it and the way you
48:01
make decisions about what you want to make you know where you're not just thinking do I want to do this do I want
48:09
to play this character you're also thinking will this be good for my career how much are they paying me um you know
48:14
is it a big enough part for the time commitment all like all of these questions that aren't creative questions
48:20
and you have to think about them to be a person it is a job but you also have to find a way to not think about and forget
48:27
about them and I think that having other disciplines of creativity that are just
48:34
for you and that Commerce isn't sneaking into is a really healthy way to keep
48:40
your flame bright um how do you think that you kind
48:45
of avoid falling into the Trap of just doing stuff for Success because it' be good for your
48:50
career well I think one way is is being multi-disciplinarian and relighting that fire remembering um
48:57
and I I think the other way is community you know is having people in your life
49:03
that you can say hey should I do this job in this place
49:09
and they're gonna offer me this thing I don't really like the script but it's a lot of money and it could be good and like and they can go well I I don't care
49:17
you know if you do that or not go for it if you want to but I won't respect you anymore or any less you know I like and
49:25
people who can be like you don't need to do do that why would you do that like um you know like let's work on our let's
49:33
work on our next record let's work on let's work on our garden let's work on you know you're okay right now do you
49:40
like ask you questions like do you need more money or are you good for a while like um you know and and is it is it
49:47
time for you to put that energy into that part of your life or is it time for you to dedicate more energy um to other
49:54
things so that's that's how I think about it yeah um Amazing Just Before I Let You Go may I ask you uh what you
50:00
have been painting yes thank you oh so pretty I
50:06
love that thank you it's like a little night sky you know there some people hanging out here and there's some pine
50:13
trees and some regular trees gorgeous thank you thank you so
50:19
much for talking to me to me today Maya it's lovely to speak to you lovely to speak to you too
50:25
[Music]
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